Interview with Abye Tasse: The Migration and development nexus from an African perspective

Interview with Professor Abye Tasse, University of Addis Ababa

SID Programme Officer Angela Zarro interviews Prof. Abye Tasse in Rome, on the occasion of the conference on African mobility, held in Rome at Ministry of Foreign Affairs,last April 2009. The interview focuses on migration and development nexus and seeks to explore African perspectives and views within the ongoing international debate. How is mobility perceived in Africa? Which are the African priorities and challenges in the policy discource? What does public opinion think? Which are the main divergencies and common interests within the Euro-Africa relations on migration and development and how these are likely to be addressed.

SID: After a few years from the launch of the Global Commission on Migration and Development,  it seems that the  migration nexus has lost some of the initial emphasis, both at policy and research level and in terms of resources allocation. What is your perception from an African perspective?
AT: I actually think that there is more interest now and there is more emphasis from an African perspective to link migration to development, for some obvious reasons. One is linked – at least from an Ethiopian perspective – to the growing number of diasporas groups and the huge amount of resources they are able to mobilise, both in terms of remittances and knowledge. There is an increasing interest within diasporas groups to understand how to better use and valorise these resources. To give you an example, I was in Washington ten days ago to discuss with Ethiopians living there on how diasporas can contribute to the enhancement  of high education at Addis Ababa University. There was a very good response.

SID: This is more what happens at private level. What about the governments’ engagement?
AT: Well, there is an obvious reason for migrants to contribute to their country of origin. But also  from a government based perspective, a growing interest is perceivable. For instance, in Ethiopia, both the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Capacity building have a ‘Diaspora office’ working to link up and strengthen diasporas capacity.
At international level, the joint EU-UN initiative for Migration & Development has recently launched a call for proposal. Many projects proposals have been submitted in Ethiopia. The funding allocation is around 10 million euros, for a significant number of beneficiaries. You can easily realise that this amount is too little. I have also heard about a World Bank initiative aimed to mobilise diasporas for development, in cooperation with the Italian government. You see, I don’t think the migration question has lost interest and appeal.

SID: What is your opinion on the European approach to migration and development?  Do you see any interesting advancements in the policy process?
AT: Well, looking from the outside, it seems that the conversation is still very much concentrated around  the issues of legal and illegal migrants; such an approach sets a framework of thinking that does not really clarify what the debate is about. In a sense, I think that problems and solutions are known; unfortunately this is not a new issue; it is an old debate, that is framed by national political agenda more than by informed discussion. So, one may wonder whether this process is really aimed to understand how migration could contribute to development or whether it is just instrumental to limit migration. The framework of discussion is not clear. There are different actors with different interests and thus different perspectives, with the result of a great confusion.
On the other hand, I don’t really know whether divergences and interests have been cleared up at African level.

SID: In your opinion, can European measures and proposals – such as circular migration  return programmes, and the blue card – be enough effective?  Such measures seem more oriented towards the high qualified immigrants, with a resulting gap between the demand for low skill workers in Europe and the interest in promoting high skill migration. How in your view this contradiction is likely to be addressed?
AT: Well, the debate is characterised by a basic contradiction between two different ideas:
one is the interest of developed countries to limit the unskilled migrants and to attract the high skilled migrants. This is now framed by what have been called selective migration.
On the other hand, the African interest – to keep the high skilled home and the unskilled leaving the country – does not match with the European interest.
So, there is a kind of double agenda: one to support the development of skilled migrants and one to reduce unskilled migrants. That is to say, under quotation, that again the burden sharing is not the same. African countries – which are supposed to be relatively poor, at least, in economic terms -  do train high skilled professionals that after university move abroad (esp. in Europe). This  is for Europe a very interesting labour market as it provides cheap and trained professionals.
I believe that there is no clear debate – at public level – on how to compensate brain drain;  there is no clear debate on how Africa has to limit migration to Europe, either.

SID: Repatriation is another hot issue. A part from a very few cases,  generally speaking, origin countries hardly accept repatriation of their citizens abroad. At the time of this interview, the vessel in the waters off of the island of Malta is a point in case. Your country, Ethiopia, is one of the major origin countries of migrants heading to Italy. Is this a topic of concern to the Ethiopian government?
AT: I am sure it is a matter of concern, even though I do not know the level of negotiations.
Do you remember during the early 70s and 80s there were the so called ‘boat people’? These people were mostly from Vietnam and other Asian countries. They were, almost automatically, accepted and recognised as refugees. Everybody in Europe and USA wanted to rescue them. They were considered like heroes, fuelling the imagination of people worldwide  Now the situation is reversed.
SID: There was a political interest at that time…
AT: Yes, there was the cold war. Today many Eritrean and Somali people are trying to do the same, but the context is different. It is an interesting contrast.
I believe that every government in Africa has somehow some preoccupation about nationals risking their life but, at the same time, which are the means to halt people’s departures? It is not easy. It is really difficult to engage in this discussion.

SID: Eritrea is one of the top ten countries of origin of refugees, most of them going to Italy. It is more or less the same for Ethiopia. Most of them are asylum seekers. Can you tell me more?
AT: Well, it is difficult for me, as Ethiopian,  to have a judgement on Eritrea. However, it seems to me that all these young Eritrean escaping towards Europe, are not getting very clear responses  from European side in terms of asylum or whatever. I wonder if the 1950 convention is still valid for people from Eritrea. For various reasons people would argue that the situation in Eritrea is very difficult. It is quite obvious  that they are leaving in a hard situation. However, these people are not granted asylum status or any other recognition.

SID: What is the perception of public opinion?
AT: Obviously people know. In Ethiopia we are also receiving a large portion of Eritrean refugees. But as you can imagine, this is a sensitive issue.

SID: Does diasporas play any role in terms of lobby and/or advocacy in support of their nationals?
AT: I don’t know how much there is kind of support and lobby for them.
In such an uneasy situation, it is difficult also for diasporas groups, to undertake such discussion and initiatives and have an influence.

SID: What do people know with regards to the perilous journey of migrants either in the Gulf of Aden or in the desert towards Libya? is public opinion aware of the situation in the Libya where migrants are either retained in detention camps or exchanged by the police with local traffickers? Are governments holding an official position on this issue?
AT: I can not say very much about official position of governments. Last year, there were some TV discussion on the subject. Some people speak about it, some people don’t. Victims also are in a very difficult position, it is not easy to ask them for witnesses. Without naming the countries involved,  yes, it is true that migrants are experiencing difficult situations along their way.
But, again, the problem remains the access to the European space that is becoming more difficult. The more difficult will be the access, the more these things will happen. EU countries are also putting more pressure on transit countries in Africa, which can thus negotiate in another position with Europe. It is not an easy system. I believe that the degree of awareness is not enough. There are attempts of explanations, however the situation is not well known and well articulated. There is a need for more open discussion and awareness raising.

SID: To sum up, we can say that a growing political interest towards migration for development is clearly emerging, both at private and institutional level (as it is the case with ministerial offices for Diaspora in Ethiopia); on the other hand, there is not a real political engagement to  contrast smuggling and human trafficking.
AT: Well, there is an engagement also in these other issues: for instance, the Ministry of Social Affairs does have an office that works on trafficking and similar issues. But what I am trying to say is that we need to build on a much more massive information and massive awareness creation,  explaining what really is happening, through videos for instance. Witnesses are not enough. More research is necessary.
SID: The International Organisation for Migration is probably working on such initiatives of information campaigns…
AT: Some Ngos do it. I guess IOM too. There are many different migration routes, and all are very dangerous. Unfortunately some people are taking a very high risk and the reason is not clear enough. Do people take such a high risk for wage differences only? I am not sure. There should be another dynamic.
SID: What is your own idea on that?
AT: Much is about ambitions and aspirations. There is an ongoing process of transformation of traditional societies, and a kind of tentative effort of Europeanization of the African spirit and mindset. Information about Europe in Africa is very positive, except for the restrictive tendency with regards to refugee regime.
The overall system (and the education at forefront) looks at the Europe as a model. In the midst of globalisation, media has been used to start a cultural transformation of African societies. And this is not even surprising me anymore; now it is even more obvious that not the poorest are moving.

SID: During SID latest workshop on migration, held in Nairobi, last December 2008, the need for major inter-regional and inter-sectorial cooperation within Africa emerged; indeed, we are aware that the level of experience sharing and collaboration among the African regions is very little. Is, in your view, the time mature to proceed in this direction, also at level of African Union?
AT: I know there was a tentative discussion on migration within African Union. I do not know the results, but I think that Africa is strongly aware of its needs and priorities.
Again, one of the biggest concern for Africa is basically to lose its home-grown expertise, in other words, the issue of brain drain. Then, what is not clear enough is that most of African migrants move within Africa rather than going to Europe. Take a country like South Africa: I am sure migration is one of the hottest issue at the moment that will inevitably become a priority issue in the negotiations with other African countries.

SID: In your view, can the nomination of Muammar el-Qaddafi as AU chairperson, have a positive impact on the African cooperation on migration? As a matter of fact, Lybia is a transit country, that suffers of pressures of destination countries on one side, and share the same challenges as transit and origin country with the rest of Africa on the other side.
AT: I want to be clear. If you take out the problem of brain drain, the issue of Africans going to Europe, is not the major issue for Africa. Mobility within Africa – in terms of numbers, patterns, and dynamics – is much more complex and challenging.
Whether Muammar el-Qaddafi can make a major shift as AU chairman, well I doubt,  because the overall dynamic is too profound and the duration of one chairmanship is not enough for a significant change. I don’t think that there might be a major shift. It might be true that Libya will have more pressure because of the AU chairmanship. However a broader reform of the migration issue is not likely to happen during the mandate.

SID: Well, the common perception in Italy is that all African migrants aim to come to Italy and Europe. This is only one amongst the many common senses on this matter.
In your position of African academic working in Africa and Europe, which are the main conceptual constraints and common senses that you see when confronting yourself with other colleagues outside Africa?
AT: The problem is that migration is very much informed by political agenda and national interests. It is a very high political issue within Europe. Although the many efforts of promoting dialogue, discussions are often framed in a certain way that it seems to me to swim into a huge ocean, without a real engagement in building a common understanding.
There is a general perception that what we already know is enough and that further research is not needed.  There is a reiteration of the same concepts and, doing so, common senses become reality. In other words, knowledge is inconsistent and fragmented.
I think there is a lack of seriousness on different sides to understand the larger scale of the migration question. Most of the attempts of understanding are very much focused on the micro level and both the academic and development community fail to pay attention seriously to what can be delivered as outcome.
Then, the existing migration theories have been mostly developed earlier in the past in relation to European migration to the USA (ex. the school of Chicago and alike). After that, we haven’t gone much forward, rather we have been proceeding on the same level. It seems that there are no new responses to new questions. To give you an example, the whole idea that people move and the reason why they do it, are so much impeded in the collective memory and collective thinking that it seems that we already have the right responses. The existing theories are so powerful to affect the political agenda. Although academics are unsatisfied with such responses, it is difficult to take distance and to make new efforts of understanding.
SID: Is it perhaps a problem of lack of resources?
AT: No, I think that the problem is more about development of knowledge in itself than resources. Resources are always limited.
SID: Is it a problem of political willingness?
AT: Well, you know, everything is taken for granted.

SID: So, which priority action would you suggest at policy level in this regard?
AT: We need to revise clearly the idea of why people migrate. I think people really need more informed research from an African perspective, rather than repeating what has already been done. You see African migration is paradoxically a new phenomenon.
SID: Although traditional…
AT: Yes, I mean towards international destinations. African migration towards USA – if you leave out the forced migration – dates back to 1965;it is not very old migration. Also African migration towards Europe, it is the same, it dates back only to 40 years ago. And there is a huge gap at theoretical level.
Now, one may wonder why people are taking such a big risk. Is it because they are not understanding the risk? or is it because there are other motivations that we just ignore? Push and pull factors are not the same of Italian emigration towards USA during the 50s. We need to have a deeper understanding of what happens to these people, before, during and after the migration experience. Everyone talks about China and India. Let’s do research on Africa.
The same for return migration. For instance the aspiration to return back to the own country can be true for Australian coming back from UK, but might not be true for African people living in Europe or US. All these questions are simply not covered by systematic empirical evidence. We lack serious research and the existing theories are too much powerful to be challenged.
C’est l’illusion du savoir, illusion de la realité, so to say. Everything seems so obvious and well known. You believe to know. And this is actually the moment when researchers should start to pay more attention to the reality.

SID: Changing topic, the pirates in the Somali waters are gaining a great attention in the world news. What is your idea about them? They are depicted either as a terrible threat or as a romantic African version of Peter Pan. In your view, can this in the near future become an argument to legitimate more restrictive measures on migratory flows stemming from Africa? or rather will they overlap or take advantage of migrants?
AT: Well, the reality is a bit in the middle, in between. Again, what do we know about that? we don’t know how many they are, what is the meaning of their action, how dangerous they are, nothing of this. The only information we have is from the mews. I am not a journalist to understand why, suddenly, from day zero to day one, these guys came up. Why now, and not ten years ago? You see, American, Indian, Chinese, they are all in that area. These are very powerful countries. All of them are there. And suddenly it seems that the biggest problem is about pirates. There is a disproportion of attention. The international newspapers are all reporting and writing about pirates. How can you compare this issue to that of poverty, climate change, and alike?  there are pages and pages reporting on pirates, and very little analysis on poverty. News on pirates are put at the same level of the economic downturn. This is sensational. This is something that may remain so for some time, or may not, with the risk of influencing the transport system, the trade. In the reality, those powerful countries – with strong interests in Somalia – could easily get rid of pirates, if they really wanted. You see,  c’est un joujou..

SID: The last question refers to Obama’s endorsement of a new immigration reform, that will allegedly consist of legalisation of those migrants already in the country, without adding new workers to the US labour force in recession. He has also put much emphasis on the need for border security. What is your opinion, also in view of the significant presence of ethiopian diasporas in the US?
AT: Well, every five-ten years we hear about regularisation. This is one amongst the many issues.
But, contrary to the general idea that migration will be reduced because of the crisis, I think it will be exactly the reverse. Migration will actually accelerate. Since the issue is economic and affects not only the US, but mainly the poor countries, there is no reason to slow down. You see how fast three billion dollars can be allocated in he US to contrast the crisis. Imagine if this could be done for African development. Again, this is not a major issue in Africa.
SID: In your view, what will happen to remittances? is it realistic to think that they could work as a kind of crisis escamotage, rescue strategy for people?
AT: Well, it is very difficult to say. There are some projection of remittances’ reduction. But this is true if you take remittances as a block. Instead, if you look at the micro level, you see that people do not use remittances for local, indigenous consumption, rather for consumption of imported goods. In fact the imports of these countries go up simultaneously. At the end of the day, what is the real added value of remittances?  you see, in this way, the money go  back to the Western receiving countries. This is exactly what is happening… And, this is why there is so much emphasis with regards to remittances.

Written by: Angela

Filed Under: Migration, Migration and Development, Opinions

Tags: African Union, Brain Drain, Development, Diaspora, Eritrea., Ethiopia, European Union, Migration

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